Tue, 06/08/2010 - 14:00 — Drew Beechum
All right gang, we had to cut things short at the meeting cause everyone had questions!
So, here's your chance - sign in, add a comment with your questions for John Palmer (http://www.howtobrew.com/) and we'll circle back with answers by the July meeting. To give John time to formulate cogent answers (and relax), please have your questions in by Friday June 18th.
Remember - for water adjustments think seasoning:
Resididual Alkalinity - is what you worry about to get the mash pH correct
The Chloride / Sulfate ratio - is what affects the malt / hop balance of your beer.
Fire Away!
Board Roles:
Comments
A lot is written about calcium, magnesium, sulfate and chloride, but not much about sodium, so thanks John for your advice about keeping sodium below 75 ppm in order to avoid bitterness and the background that went with that. I was thinking that sodium probably forms soaps with the fatty acids from the grain and that causes bitterness, while calcium does the same but precipitates out in the boil kettle. Do you have anymore observations on this? So, it sounds like it would be advisable to use RO water and then add chloride ions using only calcium chloride, and leave sodium entirely out of the beer - is that right?
John,
Thanks for coming. And Drew, thanks for arranging it. Can you recap the maximum ratios of chloride vs sulfate that beers can tolerate. I thought I remembered no more than 10 / 1 sulfates in a beer to bring out apparent bitterness and 3 / 1 chloride to bring out maltiness. Do you recomment CaCl and Epsom salts as sources for the two ions?
In a separate question, I still use the old program "Brewater" to formulate my recipies. I start out with 100% R/O and add in the minerals. Is there anything better out there for those of us who like to start from scratch with their water? I'm not a fan of Promash's water utility.
Wanted to hear it from a metallurgist... What's the best way to polish your stainless steel after brewing? Once the kettles are clean, I use barkeepers friend and then give the pots a good rinse. Before the next brew session, I clean everything with soap and water to ensure that there isn't any BF residue. I've heard that others use starsan to passivate their stainless. Any suggestions?
Also, when the agencies adjust the source water, does it usually occur overnight or is it a gradual shift that takes a few weeks?
Thanks for coming to our meeting Rock Candi!
Ah! An easy one! You are passivating correctly Erick- the key to passive stainless steel is clean bare metal, and BKF and other kitchen cleansers for stainless do a superb job. Starsan is actually a pretty good acid-based cleaner, but it won't scrub the non-passive film or dirt off like the cleanser will. I prefer the BKF method to be sure.
When do agencies adjust the source water? Whenever they schedule it. Could be anytime, for any economic reason. Ah, I misread that... I should call someone and ask, but I would think that it only takes a couple days to make the change.
-John
John - how would you characterize the flavor flaws due to chloramine in municipal water so that we can recognize this flaw when it occurs? How do you personally remove chloramine in your brewing and is that different from what you would recommend for the average homebrewer?
John, I recently bought an 18 gallon mash tun and have consistently been having problems achieving the gravity I am looking for going into the boil. I have been following the method prescribed in your book but might be missing a key step. I have also listened to the Brew Strong episode twice to search for the cure. It’s driving me nuts! My Method: • I have only brewed 5 gallon batches on this 18 gallon mash tun – I think this might have something to do with it • I multiply the grain weight by 1.25 to calculate the amount of water I need for the mash. Before adding my calculated amount, I fill up the bottom of the mash tun to the false bottom (i read this was correct) • I have dialed in my formula for the mash temp based on the one provided in your book. I don’t think temp is the problem. I almost always use a single infusion. • I use Beer Smith and currently have the efficiency at 63%. The last batch was off by a whole point. • I have two hydrometers to cross check • After a complete 60 min mash, I re-circulate a bit and start running the wort off and wait to see the flow slow down before I start sparging. I continuously sparge with slotted foil on top of the grain that I rotate to allow the water to strike different areas of the grain bed. I pour the hot water (170 degrees) over the grain slowly and evenly to allow for it trickle down and rinse the remaining sugars off. I sparge until I have around 6 1/2 gallons in the kettle. I have noticed that there is anywhere from 1 to 1 ½ gallons of wort in the mash tun below the false bottom once I clean out the spent grain. I think this step might be where some of my problems are coming from, but when I taste the grain there is no detectable sugar and I feel like the grain has been sparged properly… • At the start of the boil I am almost always at least a point off on gravity. • I am almost always a point off after the boil as well. The beers still turn out very well, but the lack of efficiency is killing me and making it difficult to brew really big beers. What can you remedy? Thanks for your help, John. Lindsay and I look forward to seeing you around.. -Matt
I have been blending and adding salts for the last 6 months with good results. I would like confirmation of my process and individual tips:
Santa Clarita uses well water and lake castaic water at different rates depending on many varibles. After talking to a chemist at the treatment plant, I test total alkalinity of my tap water (it has ranged from 90 ppm to 400 ppm) and then adjust my water report values in a linear manner. I then calc my ratio of RO water to tap water and add salts (in mash and boil) from there. For pale ales/IPA's I have used between 75% RO down to 25% RO water depending on my Total Alk test the day of water draw. I typically add gypsum, sometimes epsom salt also.
After this, I think I have a handle on RA, Min. CA, Cl to Sufate ratios etc. and feel confident of the process (after listening to the 4 part water ganza twice).
My 3 questions: 1> Is a linear adjustment to my local water report based on my total alkalinity test (at the time of water draw) an accurate enough way to determine base tap water?
2> If I am going to all this trouble, should I just build water from 100% RO? (I have an undersink RO unit and draw the day before brew day into a storage keg - mostly to treat chloramine with campden).
3> If I build water from 100% RO, is there a downside, do I lose anything I can't get with salt additions?
Thanx in advance, Larry
Try this link to an MSExcel calculator for water adjustment:
http://www.byo.com/images/stories/vpb_water_witch.xls
Simply open the file in Excel and follow the directions at the top.
Hi Larry,
Yes, linear adjustment based on Total alkalinity is a good approach. I can't see where you would go wrong there.
2. If you are getting Ttl Alk at 400 ppm then yes, I would just use build from RO for pale beers, but if you are brewing dark beers, then I would blend because the carbonate is hard to build back up without the sodium getting too high.
3. Ah, like I noted in #2, the downside to building with RO is that calcium carbonate is very hard to dissolve by itself (only 14 mg/liter in RO) - it needs the lower pH of the mash to dissolve. Gypsum, Calcuium Chloride, Magnesium Sulfate, and Sodium Bicarbonate all dissolve more easily, but even getting gypsum to dissolve can be troublesome. And if you have only calcium and no magnesium for hardness, the yeast suffer.
Good Brewing,
John
Im new to brewing and these questions are probably laughable. I just made my first batch. I used the Muntons hopped extract with dry yeast, which came with my brewing kit. I followed the instructions exactly. The yeast foamed up, but there was never a strong bubbling. I mild bubbling occurred for a short period, but never really picked up. I opened the fermenter to see what was going on and the foam was gone and the beer was barely bubbling. Kind of like a coke slowly fizzing. Is everything ok with this batch? Was the yeast bad?
Also, my next batch will contain hop pellets. What is the method used to remove the hop bits from the wort?
Everyone asks these same questions with their first few batches, including myself. I am very sorry for the delay in getting to all of the questions everyone has posted - I can't believe how much time has flown by since I was at the club meeting!
Anyway, everything was probably okay with your first batch, as you probably know by now. (Again, my apologies) You are not looking for "carbonation" during fermentation or immediately after, that only develops in the bottle or keg. The hop bits will generally settle out by themselves with time or can be removed by straining from the boil to the fermenter. You don't want to trying straining after fermentation because the oxygen pickup at that stage will stale the batch.
Good Brewing,
John